(no subject)

[tanaise]

So I was thinking more about the feminism issue. And I wondered if me being a feminist is why I wouldn't put up with the sort of crap I see some people talk about putting up with. There are things people just are not allowed to say to me. anything involving gender dimorphism is pretty much top of my list. Jenny says I don't put up with crap because I'm a bitch, but is that the same thing? Feminism is...expressing opinions that differentiate me from a doormat. A bitch is someome who does the same thing, basically. I know I have had a liberal upbringing, and that I've always had very strong women rolemodels in my life.

(I do wonder sometimes if my lack of willingness to put up with it is because of my lack of experience in relationships, but I don't think that's it. Heather's a feminist, and so's Craig. Jenny's a feminist, so I assume T must be as well, or she would have drowned him herself.)

But still. This behavior is completely beyond my comprehension. Why do people allow others to excuse behavior because of their sex? So what if you're a girl or they're a girl. That doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior. All that forgiving jerkish behavior does is encourage jerkish behavior. I have been told all my life that girls can do anything they want to do. Why are there boys who seem to have missed this lesson? I know guys who love cooking--not chefs, just guys who like to cook. Why are there also still guys who apparently feel they are genetically incapable of cooking, even when cooking is defined as something like, "reheating leftovers in the oven"?

I run into this problem when I write as well. When I write characters that are guys but not, you know, stomping around grabbing their crotches and spitting on things, I have people who don't belive they're guys, or that they're straight guys. I write women characters who are strong--mentally or physically--and still attractive to men, and people complain about that. What? How can an inability to open a door mean someone is more feminine than me? I open the door for myself. I open the door for others. And I smile and thank people, men or women, who hold the door for me. It's just endlessly fascinating that a woman doesn't see the dicotomy of being *both* not a feminist and the sole income for the household. Do they miss the point that they wouldn't be able to have any income at all if not for feminism? Or do they sign their checks over to their husbands because, you know, they're a *girl* and girls can't do math?

Comments

[piratejenny.livejournal.com]

Well, some people think bitch and feminist are the same thing. I think it depends on the situation.

T, being raised in a blue-collar household, does sometimes make jokes that, if I didn't know they were jokes, would get him drowned in a bucket. But then, he does have two older sisters, so I don't think he really had a choice about being at least in part a feminist (we won't talk about his mom). Considering I'm the one who earns more money and he's the one who does the cooking, nor does he have a problem with all that I think he's safe from the bucket for the time being. Hell, I've tried to enforce more gender roles on him than he has on me (but honey, it's the *man's* job to put the lights on the Christmas tree!). Yeah, sure it was sheer laziness on my part but it was worth a shot.

He does the food shopping, I take care of the finances. I'm the one who messes around with the computers (he's the first guy I've ever dated who knows less about them than I do). I was very proud when he actually hooked up the new dvd player on his own.

I was raised a feminist, but it's not the first thing I think of when I think of myself. It's just so ingrained in me that it's part of my nature. Like Celia, I thank people who hold doors for me, and I'll hold doors for others. It's just polite. Doesn't mean I'm not a feminist. But god damn, there is no man out there better than me just because he happens to be a man. I don't deserve to be in a lower position or not have as many freedoms just because I'm a woman. That's just stupid thinking.

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[silme.livejournal.com]

I am a feminist. I married a feminist. We're also both humanists.

He does more of the cooking than I do because he enjoys it more than I. I do more baking because I like it. He does electrical and carpentry work around the house because he likes doing it and is good at it. I plan and organise everything because I like doing it. We have separate bank accounts -- at separate banks. The mortgage is in both our names. We both contribute. He pays more of the bills because he makes more money. I pay for travel and entertainment generally because I arrange it. Let's see. He's learning how to sew. He's learning calligraphy. I'm taking over running (well, being seneschal) the SCA in the UK and Ireland...

Around '93, I was disappointed when a female freshman in high school told me she wanted to be an engineer, but she wasn't a feminist. I told her that it was because of feminists that she could say she wanted to be an engineer and be taken seriously. (I wanted to make her listen to Peggy Seeger. :)

So much media manipulation -- like the bra burning incident that was fabricated by the media -- has hurt the movement. Education, education, education...

[eudaimonia.livejournal.com]

I am raising my sons so they know how to cook, clean, sew and all the other skills they are going to need to survive once they are out on their own in the cold cruel world ;-) I've told them (many times) that they cannot should not and will not rely on a woman to take care of them - it's a team effort, always. Besides, who knows how long they will be on their own before they hook up with a girl? I don't want them to starve to death nor be the roommate from hell!

My relationship with my husband is the same way - we do what we're best at and it's always a joint effort. We have overlapping skills and abilities in some areas so we take turns (like cooking). I don't even really like the term "feminist" which to me implies a bias towards a feminine superiority (really skewed, I know). I prefer humanist, myself. We're all individuals and everyone deserves a chance to be thought of as an equal in any circumstance.

I left a "feminist" UU group once and never went back. Claiming back your own, learning the history and being angry is fine. But once you've done that, then what? I got really tired of the stagnation. We all have to learn to get along somehow and I happen to like men. I guess I try to be constructive in my point of view.

[tikimama.livejournal.com]

But, math is hard!

I've never understood the whole "I'm not a feminist, I'm not a ball busting feminazi" thing.I mean, I'm pretty proud of being a bitch, true, but I'm a capable person first and formost.I love being a girl, but I don't think that means I can't do whatever the hell I want. God help the person who tries to tell me otherwise. I'll show them ball-busting.

The odd thing is, I don't think my mom is a "feminist" in a tradition sense. She's like old-school feminist. I mean, she's so a product of the 50's, with all that baggage. She defered to her husband (which she shouldn't have, considering he's an idiot) and stayed home and let him "take care of" (destroy) the finances and all. But her family is has lots of strong women--her grandmother came here from Spain in 1907, never spoke a word of English, married late, had all her own money.

I can't imagine being with anyone (relationship, friend, whatever)who didn't think they were a feminist, or who tried to tell me I couldn't do something because I was a girl. Offensive on so many levels.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

For me, "bitch" and "feminist" aren't equivalent. I've known some real bitches who weren't feminist at all... Although I do think that "Bitch" is the best feminist mag around at the moment, in my far from exhaustive experience.

My mother did the 50s-housewife thing, except she handled the money. She was a nasty, bitter woman. Feminism was a breath of air for me in that stifling morass.

In many ways I've been a traditional woman. I haven't had a full-time job since marrying. For much of that time I was a full-time mom/psychiatric nurse (and psychiatric nursing has NEVER been something I wanted to do!). I fit my avocations around that, and was only able to really devote energy to them when K wasn't absorbing everything she could. And even now, when I have a Real Career and all, the money I make is pathetic compared to J.

Still, I'm a feminist. We divide household responsibilities along vague but non-sex-based lines. I Organize; I usually do the shopping (because I can do it during the day when things are less crowded), I do more and better cooking than J, though when it gets too uneven I object and he does more. He does the money, because the dynamic we had when I did it was toxic. I do most assembly and electronic hookups, because I enjoy it and am better at it than he is. He does most house repair for similar reasons. It basically balances out, which is the point. And he's a feminist, too-- even had one of the first subscriptions to Ms., back when it was good. :)

And I LOVE reading about characters that aren't sex-role stereotypes! I think that's one of the things I like most about a lot of sf. I even prefer romances where it's more balanced! Including gay ones; whether a romance is gay or straight isn't one of its most notable characteristics for me. I usually find I've read most of the Lambda winners, though it's because of the plots and characterizations, not 'cause they have GAY CHARACTERS or something.

[phantom_wolfboy]

Jenny says I don't put up with crap because I'm a bitch, but is that the same thing? Feminism is...expressing opinions that differentiate me from a doormate. A bitch is someome who does the same thing, basically

"Doormat". ;-)

Yeah, well, I have to admit that I've called Heather a bitch in the past, and certainly I would describe you in the same terms somewhat, but frankly, that's behaviour I admire in a person. Particularely in a woman, though, because so much female socialization is towards the "good girls don't speak up" area, and it's harder to break that sort of thing.

All that forgiving jerkish behavior does is encourage jerkish behavior. I could argue forgive, but don't forget. "You don't know any better" is an excuse that I would be willing to grant once per occurance; after that it gets harder to believe.

So basically, I'm agreeing with you, there. :)

It's just endlessly fascinating that a woman doesn't see the dicotomy of being *both* not a feminist and the sole income for the household. Do they miss the point that they wouldn't be able to have any income at all if not for feminism?

Yeah, they do. Completely. When someone says something like that to me, I reply with something like, "Yeah, you are so a feminist. Or are you planning to spend the rest of your life barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen?"

Curiously, few people want to have that discussion with me twice